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About That Popular 'Black Films Don't Sell ...We Need To Educate Ourselves On Race vs. Ethnicity (And Other Things I Learned From The Ongoing Zoe Saldana/Nina Simone Conversation)
The reaction was swift, blunt, and, seemingly, most critical among black readers who left passionate comments all over the blogosphere. Simone's own daughter should be commended for her measured approach in responding to the controversy.
This week I learned a lot about some of the readers of S&A, and other blogs with content geared to readers throughout the African diaspora. And some of what I learned, I didn't like too much.
What started off as a fair display of disapproval for a film's casting, quickly dissolved into a barrage of hateful and hurtful comments, directed at the subject of the film and the star, at the time only rumored to be attached.
There was talk about who should have been cast instead of Saldana; there was debate about whether Saldana was too pretty to play Simone, who some foolhardily labeled as unattractive.
Inevitably, and perhaps with good reason, there was concern that the role of music legend Simone was to be played by an actress of a hue different than her own. At this point in the conversation, They still had me. I was still listening, and still learning how people were feeling about the issue.
"She's too light-skinned to be taken seriously as Nina Simone," declared many who objected to the casting.
"And besides-- she's a Latina. She's stealing jobs from real black actresses."
And that's where they lost me.
I can maybe understand some of the concern expressed; most especially from those who have only identified Saldana as Latina and believe that to be the sole way she self-identifies. But for those who have viewed or read interviews wherein Saldana has self-identified as both black and Latina, I'm having difficulty understanding the lingering confusion and suspicion.
I think we've had this conversation on S&A several times before (the earliest instance I could recall was back in 2009 with Ms. WOO), so I won't take you on a long trip down memory lane this time.
Race and ethnicity-- it's understandable that some may mistake one for the other. But we all need to have a better understanding of the difference between race and ethnicity, and how it's absolutley possible (and normal) for Saldana to be both a black woman and a Latina. Also, we need to understand why her ethnicity should not be the determining factor in arguing against Saldana being cast in the planned Nina Simone biopic.
First things first, let's get some definitions . . .
The word "ethnic" refers to a member of a minority group who retains the customs, language, or social views of the group. In Saldana's case, she has self-identified culturally as a Spanish-speaking Latina, from the region of the Americas known as Latin America. (Not everyone in Latin America speaks Spanish, by the way.) Her ethnicity is Latina.
The word "race"is defined as a category of humankind that shares certain distinctive physical traits. In most regions of the world, this would apply to skin color, hair texture, and facial features. Saldana's race is black. If you think hard enough about it, I'm sure you would be able to name a few people, who you consider black, who look just like her.
And I say all of that, to say this: It's perfectly understandable for there to be some opposition to the casting of Zoe Saldana in the role of Nina Simone, but not because she's Latina. I think the belief that Saldana is stealing jobs from "real" black actresses is an ignorant one; but one that can be easily remedied with a little bit of education.
So there you have it. Zoe Saldana-- a self-identifying black Latina actress. And she's not the only one, either.
Let's revisit the below short clip from mun2.tv which discusses the realities of being black and Latino, from the perspective of various actors, musicians, and artists in this country who have also struggled with the perception that one must be one or the other.
209 Comments
AllPeople | April 10, 2013 2:19 PM
.
An 'Ethnic' category is NOT the
same thing as a "Race" category:
.
groups DOT yahoo DOT com/group/Generation-Mixed/message/4236
.
facebook DOT com/allpeople.gifts/posts/300777016632181
.
Liz Vasquez | February 24, 2013 6:40 PM
I think I understand the arguments being said, but as a mulatto Hispanic (or Latina), with ambiguous phenotype, from Central America, who grew up here in America, I can only speak for myself.
Culturally, I am not like African Americans. I grew up with the customs and culture of my family, which is close and remain strong with their cultural believes and daily lifestyle. As an immigrant child growing up in America, I wasn't raised with traditional "American" customs. My mother was very adamant on how I was raised...while my American friends had their typical American upbringing, I had to do things differently, and I won't lie that I felt left out much of the time, but now looking back, I'm grateful for that now, because it taught me to be proud of my Latin-Caribbean culture and heritage.
Maybe the issue here is CULTURE more-so than race, or skin color, etc.
Find the truth StrongMan | January 29, 2013 5:02 PM
Blacks and Latinos and whites and everyone in between. You were all black African and after time changed into what you are now. We've all been lied to. Do some serious research and use common since. Attention! WE ARE ALL THE SAME.
1. The Bible Has all the answers
2. Check out "Hidden Colors" Documentary
3. Check out "The Human Family Tree" Documentary
4. Find the truth
xo | January 24, 2013 5:15 PM
Hollywood is racist, period. This conversation should be using a wide angle lens in framing this conversation not a close up shot. People of Color, no matter the color, do not have access in hollywood...and we are in 2013. Just like in our communities we as folks of color are 'pitted' against each other for the far and few between stories of our legacies. Stop blaming 'her' for getting a part - she is an actor afterall and the parts are so scarce why blame the actor. Who put up the sign, No Dog, Negros or Mexicans? Not folks of color for sure. The words Hispanic, Latino, were lazily assigned to folks that didn't fit the white/black paradigm. Calling each other Black, White or Latino doesn't make sense. Forcing us to identify as one or the other (not brown) forces us to fight for scraps. Stand up for one another instead of falling into the fake argument of the Angry 'White' Man. What the F is his ethnicity or race, and Why are we demanding an answer to that question!
ANN | January 24, 2013 4:13 PM
LIGHT SKIN DARK SKIN AS LONG AS THEY ARE OF THE BLACK RACE DOES NOT MATTER TO ME THAT JUST A COMPLEXION I AM TALKING ABOUT RACE MIXING I HATE IT EVEN THOUGH THEIR ARE CERTAIN CASE WHERE IT SEEM OK MOT THE MASSES IT TO MUCH OF IT TODAY IT TURN MY STOMACH BUT IT OK BECAUSE I KNOW NO ONE ELSE CARE LIKE ME,
ann | January 24, 2013 4:08 PM
I AM PROUD OF MY PARENTS, EVEN THOUGH I KNOW THE HISTORY OF THE AMERICAN BLACK SLAVE AND ALL THE INTERACISL MIXUNG , I STILL DO NOT WANT MY KIDS MARRYING AND BREEDING WITH WHITES . iDO NOT FEEL IT IS RACIST TO NOT WANT MY DNA MIX WITH WHITE DNA I DO NOT WANT BLOND OR BLUE EYES IN MY FAMILY NO MORE THEN THEY WANT KIKY HAIR AND STRONG BLACK/BROWN COMPLEXION IN THEIR. I DO NOT HATE WHIT PEOPLE BUT I DO NOT WANT TO SLEEP WITH ANY I WOULD BE VERY HURT IF MY KIDS BROUGHT HOME THAT RACE IF THEY ARE DATING WHITE KEEP IT FROM ME.
LBM | January 23, 2013 2:56 PM
Black women who dare to excel in spite of daggers coming BECAUSE they are dark, BECAUSE they have wide noses, BECAUSE they choose their natural hair, BECAUSE they have full lips - deserve to be celebrated in as accurate imagery as possible. Just as Lena Horne had certain options BECAUSE of how she looked, Nina Simone's complete course was informed by HOW SHE LOOKED and the fact that she dared to be proud when there was almost no segment of society embracing her beauty. What she achieved, her tenacity to want to LIVE in a world in which most women who looked like her barely survived should not be downplayed. I'm dismayed that so many continue to ignore/dismiss the plight of darker complexioned women of a certain phenotype. Folk bust a gasket every time Jesus is spoken of as not white. So to pretend that we don't understand the power of imagery is just evil. I'd bet my last dollar that if Celia Cruz (RIP) attempted to play Lena Horne, people would have had a problem.
monique | January 16, 2013 9:24 PM
who cares about her race or her ethnicity . she does not look anything like the actress. i am tired of lightskinned actresses playing the parts of woman who are dark skinned. her color is important especially during the time she was a star. also simone was not an advocate for mixed race relationships and saldana embodies that. it is not ok . if u are gonna do a movie on a black person make sure the person is black and something the real artist would of approved of. simple
Lizochka | January 11, 2013 4:55 PM
The ethnicity v race thing has always confused me. I've been told a few times that I'm not white (I'm from Russia and ethnically Russian), but I'm light-skinned and check the "white" box on forms in the US.
Maya | January 9, 2013 5:55 PM
You people just confuse the hell out of me, I live in south-america (I really don't understand where that "Latin America" crap came from because we speak spanish not latin) I'm really piss-off about all the stupid commentaries about how Zoe can't play the part because she is latina, seriously?? 'cause for me she is not latina at all, she was born in US soil, and no matter that she lived a couple of years in Dominican Republic, and her parents are both hispanics, she is an American because the mayority of her live, she was in the US and that's the culture on which she was raised, no matter where her parents come from, I was born in the Argentina but I wasn't race there so I don't now absolutly nothing about that culture, and I don't consider myself argentinian, and I sure no matter Zoe feels very proud of where her parents came from and they thought him a little of their own culture, is just that nothing more, "she is stealing the part of other american black wome" hahahah don't make me laugh that's the most racist thing I ever heard, she is not stealing anything 'cause she is an american with hispanic parents yes, but an american, AND ALSO THE MOVIE IS ALREADY IN POST PRODUCCION SO GET OVER IT, there's nothing we can do or say to change the fact that she had the part.
MichelleToo | January 3, 2013 9:39 PM
Your article is incredibly logical and valid. I am really glad you took the time to make the important distinctions between race and ethnicity, especially since we as Black Americans can stand to remind ourselves that we have a whole diaspora to be proud of and to educate ourselves about.
HOWEVER, and I put that in caps because it is extraordinarily important, we are not talking about an academic distinction. We are talking about reel life. Literally. The world of film and television, where the academic distinctions between race and ethnicity don't really amount to a hill of beans. What does amount to a hill of beans is the fact that Black women, in particular, non racially ambiguous Black American women have been trying since the beginning of Hollywood to gain some sort of foothold in the telling of not just our stories, but hell, the stories of anybody. Non-racially ambiguous Black women have been chipping away at the stereotypes and attitudes that still define and crowd us into these very small pigeon holes, from which it is very hard to been seen as fully human.
In plain English, Latina women have, in comparison, vast amounts of freedom and power in Hollywood. Latina women are not seen as Black nor are they treated as Black. They are treated as serious commodities in film and television. A Latina actress can be seen with any leading man, and they can grace any magazine, be on any show, be in any movie. They have the power in Hollywood to make films, OPEN films and certainly star in a TV show.
People like Dania Ramirez, Jessica Alba (Honey), Zoe Saldana, Christina Milian, Rosario Dawson, Daphne Rubin-Vega, etc all move back and forth seamlessly between being Black, Afro-Latina, and Latina on any given day. They will be seen in auditions to play the daughter of two Black parents or to play a Black American (which, by the way is also an ethnicity) icon. However, Black American actress, those without the extra specialness of being Latina, don't get those opportunities. Those opportunities are only open to Latina women because in Hollywood, being Latina comes with a power that Black actresses are not granted. Being Latina is a privilege in Hollywood. Now, I am not one to get into the race olympics, but in the case of Hollywood, we have to be honest about the hierarchy that exists because that is the only way we can dismantle a system that keeps us all down.
We all know that Zoe Saldana has been allowed to do the things that she is doing because yes, she is beautiful and talented and has been on her grind, BUT, the fact that she is Latina and not just Black gives her an enormous boost. And THAT has to be talked about, ESPECIALLY vis a vis a biopic about Nina Simone who dealt with this kinda ish all her life. In fact she wanted her life to be a hammer that would start to destroy the mentality that says that Black women are not beautifully sexual fully realized human beings.
So we HAVE to talk about Zoe Saldana's ethnicity, her culture, her race and her privilege. We HAVE to talk about the fact that she is Latina. And for the record, I don't think she is light skinned. I think that is the most ridiculous part of the criticism, because to me light skinned is Gina Torres or Lauren Velez or Vanessa L. Williams. They are light. Zoe is not light. And whole other post should be dedicated to why people think she is light. But that is for another time.
Hmmm..Lets C | January 1, 2013 10:40 AM
My only response is can someone Black/African American/African can get a role in Latin American countries
Maeiyah | December 22, 2012 2:03 PM
I totally disagree with your whole premise, this is for the author of this article. It was because of our phenotype,rich carbon melanin ,who we are, the first born, chosen people why we caught so much hell in this country, This also applies for our great Nina Simone, because of her phenotype, her wide nose and large lips how dare you try to justify racist Hollywood rewriting our story. So NO I disagree with Zoe Saldana playing the roll of Nina Simone. No other people on this EARTH has experience the HOLOCAUST that we as DARK CARBON MELANIN have experience and continue to experience we lost everything our Culture, our spirituality, our essence, our Land, and our Nationality. My people suffer greatly from the STOCKHOLM syndrome, then you have Negros who have no knowledge of themselves trying to justify this blatant disrespect to rewrite our story. Those who forget are doomed to repeat. Just like Europeans depicting Jesus as a Europeans when we know the region he was born and what those people look like. The very exact thing is is happening here. 100 years later, our young people see the story and think Nina Simone, look like Zoe Saldana and was a Latino women, this is how rewriting your story starts right in your face. I guarantee you if Nina Simone was alive today, she would not want Zoe Saldana to play her role, I can guarantee you this.Other nationality study us, and know our mindset they know most of our sister's and brother can be bamboozled and suffer deeply from self hatred. Other people from other nationalities including Europeans, can piss in our face and call it rain, and confused Negro cosign it with allegiance SMDH
YILDIRIM, Ferhat | December 22, 2012 6:40 AM
Find me on facebook Im writing a movie in my posts as a draft, its going to be about a human being lightning 'me', enthicity, race and why discrimination exsists. Iv started 2minutes in to writing it already. Im doing it just for the sake of it as I cant find work, every job is taken so incomes has to come in some way or another. Maybe a book first I dont know.
What else strikes earth other then human beings living on land with two foot or atleast one? No one but lightning.
I will sue any other human being who strikes taking my idea/s. Sick of being used as a tool.
Yahya | December 21, 2012 2:17 PM
It is amazing how still toward the end of 2012, we still feel compelled to debate "race", "ethnicity", and all of their relations. Indeed, as "Black" Americans (or "African-Americans"...however some choose to identify), we need to get over the MISconception that we are the ONLY other group of African descent outside of Africa, or the ONLY other group of African descent whose ancestors were victims of the Trans-Atlantic slave trade. Just as many native West Africans have to get over the fact that many of us openly choose to identify with pride (and not hide) our ancestral links to the Motherland. Indeed, there are more of our distant "cousins" in Brazil than in the U.S. and I've met many brothers and sisters here in the U.S. who had absolutely NO CLUE that there were so many "black" families in Central and South America, or even in the Caribbean. Now, although I'm sure there are many other talented actresses (or perhaps even a very talented newcomer) who could portray Nina Simone and do her justice on film...Zoe doesn't deserve all of the hate being spewed her way over a role (and over both her culture and familial ancestry). I have only read interviews where she self-identifies with both her African and Latin heritages, and Spanish is her first language. I don't see what all the hoopla is about.
Du Lys | December 4, 2012 12:12 PM
Kathy's comment about being "ethnically half black but racially white" has to be one of the most asinine remarks I've ever come across on this topic. Aside from the fact that there is no such thing as race, the whole idea is based on perception. Someone with light skin and wavy hair may appear to be white to you but they may have other features that make it quite obvious to someone else that they are black.
omar | December 2, 2012 10:45 AM
What makes your Race vs Ethnic argument is not your notion of the former being physical and the latter social, which I generally agree to. It is your "racist" designation of Black as something exclusively physical. As if people of African origin and slave descent in the north America's have not retained common customs, language, or social views stemming from their unique social experience and background. Being black is every much a social thing as being Latino. I think it is very "racist" to think of black being socially speaking, a empty slate, that only corresponding to physical characteristics like hue, texture, nose structure and bone density. This is very unscientific and problematic. Since the concept of race is a social construct the biology of race has no social meaning beyond continental evolution. We have to look at Black as an ethnic category in the same way as Latin. So the real question is ethnicity vs ethnicity. Zoa's Blackness vs her Latinoness in comparison to Nina Simone. Did Zoa share some of the same customs, language, or social views as Nina Simone as did the typical Black woman? Of course her likeness to the looks of the actor she is playing should be a qualifier ( and make up no pun intended can make up for the lack of likeness, but the social experience of being Black the products if that experience, the customs, language, social views, to me is paramount and takes precedence.
AllPeople (AP) Gifts [soaptalk AT hotmail DOT com] | November 24, 2012 10:06 PM
.
There is actually no such thing as a so-called "Light-Skinned
Black" person ... but rather ... such individuals and groups
are actually people who are of a 'Multi-Generational
Multiracially-Mixed' (MGM-Mixed) Lineage that some may
have been pressured or encouraged to ignore or downplay.
.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Generation-Mixed/message/4160
.
People of Mixed-Race lineage should NOT feel pressured to
'identify' according to any standards other than one's own.
.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Generation-Mixed/message/4157
.
The legal -application of the racist-'One-Drop Rule'
(ODR) was banned in the U.S. way back in 1967.
.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Generation-Mixed/message/4162
.
http://www.facebook.com/groups/253286018082418/permalink/253341891410164
.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Generation-Mixed/message/4187
.
http://www.facebook.com/groups/253286018082418/permalink/253341281410225
.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
.
Listed below are related Links of 'the facts' of the histories
of various Mixed-Race populations found within the U.S.:
.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
.
There is no proof that a 'color-based slave hierarchy'
(or that 'color-based social-networks') ever existed
as common entities -- within the continental U.S.
.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Generation-Mixed/message/4154
.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Generation-Mixed/message/4153
.
It was the 'Rule of Matriliny (ROM) -- [a.k.a. 'The Rule of Partus'
(ROP)] -- and NOT the racist-'One-Drop Rule' (ODR) -- that was
used to 'create more enslaved people' on the continental U.S.
.
This is because the chattel-slavery system that was
once found on the antebellum-era, continental U.S.
was NOT "color-based" (i.e. "racial") -- but rather
-- it was actually "mother-based" (i.e. 'matrilineal').
.
http://www.facebook.com/allpeople.gifts/posts/309460495741441
.
There were many ways (and not solely the sexual assault
and sexual exploitation of the women-of-color) in which
'white' lineage entered the familial bloodlines of
enslaved-people found on the continental U.S.
.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Generation-Mixed/message/4238
.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Generation-Mixed/message/4239
.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Generation-Mixed/message/4240
.
An 'Ethnic' category is NOT the
same thing as a "Race" category:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Generation-Mixed/message/4236
.
http://www.facebook.com/allpeople.gifts/posts/300777016632181
.
Other Topics:
.
https://www.facebook.com/allpeople.gifts/posts/279223868853420
.
https://www.facebook.com/allpeople.gifts/posts/164203590359746
.
http://www.facebook.com/notes/%C2%ADallpeople-gifts/the-facts-on-m%C2%ADixed-race/321878451159708
.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
.
Dee | November 24, 2012 4:29 PM
The comment from AP Gifts about there being no such thing as light skin black people is by far the most ridiculous comment on race I have ever read! Even in Africa and I'm not referring to thse of Arab descent, come in different shades of black! Have you ever seen South Africans? Black is just an overall term to classify a group of people. Remember the opposite of black is whte. Not all white people are one shade either. I am a lighter shade of brown and my sons are ligh complexion. Their father, a dougla (East Indian and black of the west indies) is a darker shade. Coming from a family of people who are very light in color with blue eyes to the blackest shade and even dark with gray eyes, is the most beautiful thing. To see that we as an ethnic group because there is only one race, the human race, are so unique. If you observe the different countries of Africa including the Ethiopians and Somalians and their characteristic features and skin color and hair textures and the rest of us how we should be proud! It doesn't matter what the other mixtures are, it's just a testament that black people can look like several other groups of people, ethnic-wise. But to say there is no such thing as a light skin black person makes me then wonder: What about two black parents who give birth to a veryh light complexion, light eyed light hair child? It happens all the time. And it's not because the parents are biracial. The genetic pool is a very complicated thing. Not all blacks with blue eyes for example is because of a white gene. It's a particular gene that can even happen to pure Asian. It's the OCA2 gene. Read about it. It's really sad that everyone wants to be white. If you take a can of white paint and add a drop of black or brown, you won't get white. People have the right to call themselves what they want, but when it's done because they are ashamed to be of African descent, then I feel sorry for them!
guitargirl1 | November 18, 2012 4:27 PM
Why is do you say it's no such thing as a light skinned black person? Tell that to my black friends, any of them. they will all argue that it is such a thing as that. just like it's dark skinned white people, white asians and very deep red indians. That makes no sense to me, your comment on the color of people. There has always been an issue with the dark Blacks and the lighter toned blacks. it seems that the lighter they are, the better the treatment they get, even from their own kind!! In other countries, not just here in the USA. Cuba, is one of the places that makes a difference between colors of people, it's that way everywhere we go. Puerto Ricans used to where make-up to make their faces lighter and their cheekers red, for to be thought of as white, or white like. Yes, light skinned folks do exist, try telling some of them that it's not a race, they will tell you another story all together. We might not like people to be treated better or worse because of the color of their skin...but it still happens to this day. i am afraid it's always gonna be some extent to it. My ex-husbands and his birth family are so ashamed of being black, they call themselves native American, now that's terrible! i had DNA testing done for my son, came back with not a drop of Indian blood in him. So, we are always gonna have to deal with folks and their skin color, whatever color, however light or dark, we will still have our likes and dislikes.
APGifts [soaptalk@hotmail.com] | November 14, 2012 10:24 PM
.
There is actually no such thing as a so-called "Light-Skinned
Black" person ... but rather ... such individuals and groups
are actually people who are of a 'Multi-Generational
Multiracially-Mixed' (MGM-Mixed) Lineage that some may
have been pressured or encouraged to ignore or downplay.
.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Generation-Mixed/message/4160
.
People of Mixed-Race lineage should NOT feel pressured to
'identify' according to any standards other than one's own.
.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Generation-Mixed/message/4157
.
The legal -application of the racist-'One-Drop Rule'
(ODR) was banned in the U.S. way back in 1967.
.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Generation-Mixed/message/4162
.
http://www.facebook.com/groups/253286018082418/permalink/253341891410164
.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Generation-Mixed/message/4187
.
http://www.facebook.com/groups/253286018082418/permalink/253341281410225
.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
.
Listed below are related Links of 'the facts' of the histories
of various Mixed-Race populations found within the U.S.:
.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
.
There is no proof that a 'color-based slave hierarchy'
(or that 'color-based social-networks') ever existed
as common entities -- within the continental U.S.
.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Generation-Mixed/message/4154
.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Generation-Mixed/message/4153
.
It was the 'Rule of Matriliny (ROM) -- [a.k.a. 'The Rule of Partus'
(ROP)] -- and NOT the racist-'One-Drop Rule' (ODR) -- that was
used to 'create more enslaved people' on the continental U.S.
.
This is because the chattel-slavery system that was
once found on the antebellum-era, continental U.S.
was NOT "color-based" (i.e. "racial") -- but rather
-- it was actually "mother-based" (i.e. 'matrilineal').
.
http://www.facebook.com/allpeople.gifts/posts/309460495741441
.
There were many ways (and not solely the sexual assault
and sexual exploitation of the women-of-color) in which
'white' lineage entered the familial bloodlines of
enslaved-people found on the continental U.S.
.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Generation-Mixed/message/4238
.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Generation-Mixed/message/4239
.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Generation-Mixed/message/4240
.
An 'Ethnic' category is NOT the
same thing as a "Race" category:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Generation-Mixed/message/4236
.
http://www.facebook.com/allpeople.gifts/posts/300777016632181
.
Other Topics:
.
https://www.facebook.com/allpeople.gifts/posts/279223868853420
.
https://www.facebook.com/allpeople.gifts/posts/164203590359746
.
http://www.facebook.com/notes/%C2%ADallpeople-gifts/the-facts-on-m%C2%ADixed-race/321878451159708
.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
.
Raymond | November 14, 2012 6:25 PM
When did latino become a race. There are to much ignorant black and white Americans out there.
A latino can be white, black, mulatto or mezisto. White people have don a good job of causing conflict among black people. Black latinos think they are better because they speak spannish. Wake up and smell the coffee, white latinos have no use for you. Black americans have to realize that they are not the only black people out there. In fact, most of the slaves that came from Africa ended up in Brazil or the Carribean. One final note. Puerto Rico is a country and not a race.
Byron Wilkes | November 12, 2012 12:44 AM
It is sickening that most of us (black people) know so little about race and ethnicity. This is evidenced by black people adopting the idiotic term African American. Do you know what an African American is? An African American is someone who emigrated from the African continent and now is a citizen or permanent resident of the United States. Being abducted and forced to come over in chains is not emigration, so I refuse to use the polite term, African American. I prefer black or negro, they are descriptive and less ambiguous. No matter what Zoe Saldana says she is, she looks like a black woman to me. So that is how the world would treat her. I am also of the opinion that a lot of black folks try to "pass" by claiming Latino heritage. There are at least two light skinned women at my job who try to claim Puerto Rican ancestry because of their light skin. When I question them about which ancestor of theirs was from the island I get blank stares. I think most of them do not even know Puerto Rico is an island. What they actually are is descended from raped slaves and rapist slave owners. It does not sound as sexy as saying you are Puerto, but I guess anything is better than being a nigger to these wannabees. Then I hear people talking about having "Puerto Rican" hair. Whenever I hear this I try to gently let the person know that Puerto Rican is not a race but a nationality. Just like other commenters have pointed out the Latino is not a race but a culture. I usually get blank stares in return. It seems that the black community is bathed in ignorance and is comfortable with this smell on them.
no name | October 29, 2012 10:57 AM
That woman is just black, not in any way from Spain , France, Portugal or Italy. Maybe she speaks some dialect of Spanish, maybe not, I don't know, don't care. Spaniards are going to have more than a few words to say about some being tanned because you have decided that it must be due to a mixture of black blood. I guess the slave trade must have gone all over the world without historians knowing this, even before there even was a British, French, Portuguese and Spanish slave trade. Just give it a 5 to 7 year old innocence test from any child anywhere in the world, put her picture up next to a Caucasian female or a Asian and ask the child, why all these games. she's looks successful, pretty, young and happy, why can't we celebrate that just as she is.
AllPeople (AP) Gifts | October 25, 2012 12:49 AM
.
Please feel free to work to inform Americans that ....
the ETHNIC term of "African-American" (AA) is NOT
a 'Synonym' for the RACIAL term of 'Black American'
(BA) -- the two (2) terms are actually referring to two
(2) entirely DIFFERENT GROUPS of people -- AND that
many of the true AAs find it to be very offensive that
our society works to force them to "carry the statistics"
(particularly the 'negative' ones -- ex. AIDS / HIV Rates,
STD Rates; Crime Rates; Out-Of-Wedlock Birthrates;
Higher-Education Drop-Out Rates, STD Rate; etc.) --
for all of the many, many, many diverse BA groups
and communities that are currently living in the U.S.
.
https://www.facebook.com/allpeople.gifts/posts/300777016632181
.
shay | October 23, 2012 4:31 PM
Latin/ Hispanic is not a race!!! Hispanic is an ethnicity/ culture!! for example my race is black and my ethnicity/ culture is Caribbean. How do you think there are dark skinned Spanish people? because they are either full African or they are partly mixed with african. It is so sad that they deny their race. People just fail to see that the Dominica, cuba, puerto-rico etc.. are just a countries!! not a race! there are white hispanics, black hispanics, indian hispanics, even some that look asian. I understand other races getting confused, but lorrd the actual black spanish people who dont identify as black really need to educate them selves, like really!!
Offthepink | October 21, 2012 10:39 AM
These are the same idiots confused about how George Zimmerman could be both white and hispanic. As if latin/hispanic was a race or something. Smh.
ladyday | October 16, 2012 6:38 AM
this is not the first time zoe has played the part of a Black actress and there were no complaints so why now. I hope she does a great job. How can you call it
'stealing' a role - the role has to be 'offered' to her by someone else.
Ty87 | September 29, 2012 6:11 AM
Well I think that it would only make since to have a full black actress play nina simone. Thats like u wouldnt have La La anthony portraying whitney houston. Cause to me zoey comes off as only identifing with her latina race. Like when she played n the movie Columbia I thought that she was just a dark skinned latina. I say if your black u should embrace it and b proyd. Cause I shore am.
Marques | September 22, 2012 3:50 PM
I appreciate the fact that someone spoke out on this issue and hopefully educated people at the same time. One of the main things I am concerned with on this issue of identity is the apparent African-American belief that there is a monopoly on "blackness" that only slave descendants in the United States can claim. Let me explain one little fact that should clear this up: during the Trans-Atlantic Slave Trade that brought something like 10-12 million Africans to the New World, 96% of those Africans went to the Caribbean and Latin America. Only 4% came to what would become the United States. Nearly 40% of that 96% went to Brazil alone. Yes, the Portuguese shipped nearly 10 times more African slaves to the land that would become Brazil than the British sent to the US. Another note: Many "African-American" families have Caribbean heritage, some more recent, some more distant. Last note: The Americas include North America, South America, Central America and the Caribbean, thus, in a way, ALL African slave descendants in the Americans could actually claim themselves to be "African-American". In my travels to Brazil, I have met with several members of that country's black civil rights organizations that remind me of this.
Also, racial identity, race, racism and the disregard for black people worked in a similar but also different manner in all of Latin America. Many Latin American countries indoctrinated populations so thoroughly to accept "white as right", that people of color were taught to prefer marriage and procreation with persons of lighter skin so that they could "whiten" or "improve" their family line. Although this "improving the race" ideal also existed in the US, strict segregation put a decrease on racial mixture in the US while it was the norm in Latin America. Thus, many would-be black Latinos throughout the Americas are taught to define themselves as anything but black. Dominicans that US-born blacks would see as black were taught to called themselves "Indians". In Brazil, the term "moreno" can apply to anyone who doesn't have blond or red hair. This has created a clash of identity with US-born blacks when brown-skinned Latinos migrate to the US and identify themselves by their nationality or by one of the color-coded euphemisms I just mentioned.
Thus, US blacks often look down on black Latinos in some ways similar to how they look down on individuals of immediate racial mixture who prefer to identify themselves as "mixed" rather than black. I say "immediate" mixed race because in the US, one is only mixed if they have parents who consider themselves to be of different races, whereas in Latin America, one is mixed regardless of how far this mixture is. US-blacks have a contradictory attitude toward this mixed race thing. There is a preference for lighter-skin and less kinky hair, traits of mixture, but discomfort with a mixed identity. The vast majority of US-born blacks are also "mixed", so this is a ridiculous mentality.
In recent years, there has been a push to encourage more persons of visible African ancestry throughout Latin America to embrace a black identity. In the 2010 census in Latin America, there were campaigns in places like Argentina, Peru, Equador, Brazil and other countries to get people to stand up and be counted as black rather than some term meant to escape blackness. Which brings me to the debate on Zoe Saldana as Nina Simone.
I don't think Zoe should play the part, but not because of her Latin ethnicity. Zoe is clearly a black woman! All of us know some US-born black woman who looks like her. I simply believe there is a closer phenotype match for the part of Nina Simone. This issue of light, brown and dark skin has divided African descendants for so long and for me, it can actually be a trap that continues to divide us by 1) denigrating Zoe because she has lighter skin and 2) "othering" her because her family happened to get dropped off in the Caribbean rather than US shores.
More and more black Latinos are claiming their right to blackness and I think this should help bring us closer together rather than increasing our distances and differences. This is not to say this is a simple issue. I also think that magazines such as KING, SMOOTH and SHOW that are promoted to black men are pushing a more "mixed"/Latina black phenotype than "regular" black women. I put quotes around regular on purpose because it seems that looking like Gabrielle Union and Sanaa Lathan (both of whom are also "mixed" to some degree) are no longer good enough for these magazines. I will save that argument for another time. But for now, let us remember, Africans were sent to many Latin American countries in some cases several decades before ancestors arrived in the US. Thus, these Africans faced discrimination because of their color before US-born blacks even arrived. So let us stop all of this "she's Latina" business. If persons from Latin America accept themselves as black, we need to welcome them into the family. In today's Latin America, folks are fighting back against anti-Africanisms in their countries of origin and saying: "blacks have to accept their identity": http://bit.ly/R2vRhU.
In the end, due to the system of white supremacy that "others" everyone who doesn't look European, we are all one people! Recognize!
James Booker | September 18, 2012 6:45 PM
I will NOT NE SPENDING ANY MONEY TO VIEW THE MOVIE. I do not have cable so I will not be doing so extemporaneously neither. I do like Zoe and support her; though I'm starting to think otherwise, as it seems it is only in her movie contracts to date, kiss and have sex with white men in her role. It also does not seem as of she dates Black men. Nor does Halle Berry, nor Kerry Washington. On the flip side, I also think it a disgrace when Black men sports players and rapper only date Mullatos, Latin Americans and white women. BLACK PEOPLE ARE SO CONFUSED ITS SO SAD! We love everybody but our NATURAL SELVES; the sadest part, NOBODY LOVES US UNTIL WE HAVE MONEY & FAME!
Jena | September 17, 2012 9:35 PM
There are many Black men, and women always staring after me even though I am Chinese. I am glad America is an Ethnically Aware Society, and I still know that they stare on me maybe because my jaw is crooked. I wonder if I will return to having an unrefined jaw one day after evolutional changes due to my second nature with this forfeiture that my sister sexually abused me. Whatever the case is: I am not all Asian and I knew all along.
liz | September 14, 2012 12:12 AM
Israel Getty hit the nail on the head!! These women have more European features over African. They are what Western civilization accept and push as pretty nowadays! Emanuel (the author) seems like he is just defending HIS type of woman!!!
bebe | September 14, 2012 12:06 AM
SHE IS NOT BLACK! SHE IS still LATINA SWEETY! THAT IS WHY PEOPLE ARE UPSET. SO PERHAPS you SHOULD EDUCATE yourself!
Israel Getty | September 7, 2012 3:25 PM
The very obvious irony is that the Latino actresses in this documentary complain about being discriminated against because of their darker hues and curly hair; however, it is because these very features )which appear be biracial) that they are chosen to portray black females. Although these physical characteristics prevent them from portraying Latino women, they seem to increase the likelihood that they will be chosen to portray black females. So, they are in fact taking roles from black American actresses whose hues are much darker, physical characteristics are much broader and curs much tighter and shorter, which may be why Mary Blige was replaced by Zoe Saldana. They have nothing to complain about.
dcmoviegirl | September 6, 2012 7:43 PM
There are a lot of bitter black women who were likely bullied by black women of another hue in school who still carry that stupid and divisive "color/hair texture wars" mess around.
Kyna | August 31, 2012 5:30 PM
Thank you so much for this article. Unfortunately, I missed it somehow after you posted, but am glad to catch up. Tomorrow morning, I'm posting my weekly digest of stories about women in film, TV and digital media -- I call it "Her.Stories" -- on my blog, Her Film. I will definitely link to this article as a not-to-miss story. I'm prefacing my digest of stories about the controversial casting choice, and have already written a short piece about being disturbed by the seemingly ethnocentric language surrounding the discussion of Saldana. In not a few articles on reputable news sites and magazines, has Saldana been referred to as a "Dominican" actress, without a single mention further into the articles of her also being Black. I am happy to see articles like yours (and a recent one on the Monique Blog) which help to define the terms and set parameters for the discussion.
Regina | August 31, 2012 3:08 PM
She is not just black Latina she is a multiracial Latina. You can look at her and tell she is MORE than just black. Her heritage is from the Dominican republic which is majority mixed race white/black people and Puerto Rico who are majority decedents from white males and native American women with a few black ancestors thrown in. Maybe you should learn not to follow such a hateful racist one drop rule when speaking about Latina women.
Kenne | August 25, 2012 5:06 PM
Here's my two cents for what it's worth. My objection to Zoe Saldana portraying Nina Simone is not based on ethnic terms but we have to admit why couldn't someone like Jennifer Hudson, (who's actually a singer and has proven that she can act, jeez, she did win an Academy Award!) be chosen for the part? I'm just sayin'. When dealing with a "Hollywood" production, we should know by now what to expect.
Urn | August 22, 2012 4:44 PM
Some of y'all on here sound liable to start the "Zoe Saldana Birther Movement"...make homegirl sit down with Skip Gates and submit to a test to see just how africana she is.
Gimme a break! We're not white people--this whole "monoculturalist" ideology neither befits nor benefits us! I'd rather hear suggestions of whom should have been casted instead of refutation from brainwashed pseudo-militants who've never heard of Arturo Schomburg (that Portyrican for whom an important African-American cultural research library is named) or bumped some Ismael Rivera. One's culture is defined by his/her EXPERIENCES not just if her father is from the Dominican Republic or Detroit. And, even then, that's why it's called ACTING. It's such a bigger issues that this biopic is both unauthorized and historically inaccurate.
DL | August 22, 2012 2:58 PM
With all the talk of her being black or not the reality is that hollywood does not SEE zoe as BLACK alot of people see her sucess in hollywood as a trimph for black actressses WRONG hollywood is marketing her as latina pure and simple NOT black and latina BUT LATINA and exotic. She is ideal for hollywood as she fits into 3 markets whereas most actresses only fit into one black or white but zoe has the mainstream (white) latin, AND black very similar situation to vin disel and the rock.
white women are not threatened by her looks and can relate to her, blk women just see her darkish skin and support her as there is noone else to support and of course latin women support her. Same goes for the men. Men of all races fancy her cant really say that about angela bassett/kerry/viola can you? now hollywood knows because of the one drop rule blacks will see her as blk even though they DONT so they can put her in any blk movie as a replacement for a black woman and noone will be none the wiser or so they thought before this controversy.
Will the penny finally drop for black people when they put her in a leo, george, jonny or brad movie as one of their love intrests- a total no go area for black actresses? will that be the point where bp let go and relise she is NOT REPPING YOU? or will they think were in some post racial america like they did with obama eh lol!
Mark Dudley | August 22, 2012 2:02 PM
My issue with a great many people who I have known who self Identify as Black and Latino/Latina is that they don' t seem to recognize the VAST history of racial prejudice( Notice I didn't use the word racism as people often confuse the two) within the Latino community. It seems that as is usually the case the Latino community finds itself as "color struck" as the African American community "If your black stay back, if your light your alright". With the Indian community following the same viewpoint.
My issue with Zoe Saldana playing Nina Simone, however, is simply that I haven't seen her do work with any sort of dimension as of yet. I hope she works hard to do the film justice.
anon | August 22, 2012 11:43 AM
@come again i bet you think mariah carey is a light skinned bw too eh? I included hair texture and phenotype in my assement of ms. saldana NOT just skin tone.
People like you are the reason why the bc is so d***m confused about race notice how whites and asians know EXACTLY whos in their community and guess what? they are thriving unlike us! But continue to hate african features and worship european features eventually these biracials will replace blacks altogether anyway based on the stupidity of the bc.
anon | August 20, 2012 2:34 PM
heres a picture of zoes mother she aint black! and she IS puerto rican. http://photos.exposay.com/Zoe_Saldana/photo/869168/
http://www.exposay.com/zoe-saldana-with-mother-women-in-film-los-angeles-presents-the-2010-crystal--lucy-awards---arrivals/p/38038/2/?f=Zoe+Saldana+with+mother
n/a | August 20, 2012 12:23 PM
I could say that Zoe Saldana is wrong for the choice of portraying Nina for many things. I am not going to do that. Here is why she is not the right choice. It's a bad casting choice plain and simple. I know why Hollywood did it. It's stupid and will lessen the value of the film. She could make the performance memorable, they could put her in tons of makeup to give an effect. It's not going to work. I don't see her as Nina. I can(sort of) see Mary as Nina. Or Alfre Woodard but I think that is might be too late in the game for her to play Nina. Even though Ms. Woodard still looks amazing. However Zoe is too young. I don't think she has the same tenacity as Nina. For me growing up hearing Nina for the first time and seeing what she looked like resonated with me since I looked kind of like Nina. But seeing how she had the great confidence on stage was intoxicating. Mary could pull that off. Zoe not so much, she already is a very beautiful girl. I am not saying that Mary isn't. But Mary has been very vocal in regards to building her confidence to and accepting herself. Nina was vocal on celebrating that even though she is not the standard beauty of the western world she is a goddess among men. I think Mary can bring that emotion onto the screen more then Zoe.
Grey Wolf | August 20, 2012 8:44 AM
imho, if they cast any other than someone who would be deemed as an "ugly Black woman" by Hollywood, then they are making a fiction out of her life. Based on the time she lived and the racial environment at the time, had she been a "pretty high-yellow girl" her experiences would have been vastly different. A Latina/ Black would have had an entirely different experience. A pretty Black woman - think Lena Horne -- would have had an entirely different experience. Nina Simone lived a tragic life simply because she was a "trapped" inside an "ugly" Black package. (Since she looks so much like my maternal grandmother, I personally don't consider her "ugly" at all.)
We can't change the world's ugly past by whitewashing it. We already have generations of children thinking that Cleopatra looked like Elizabeth Taylor thanks to Hollywood. Do we really need the next generation of people to believe America didn't also discriminate against "ugly" people, that all of Nina's obstacles were due to her race alone? No, we don't. I want to see the movie, but if Zoe (or some other woman who would be considered attractive by today's standard) is cast in the role, I will not. I can appreciate her family wanting to get paid, but they won't get my money by offering lies.
My humble opinion | August 19, 2012 10:11 PM
At the end of the day Zoe Saldana looks nothing like Nina Simone. Not even the slightest resemblance. They have different skin tones and completely different facial features. I mean, Beyonce might as well play Marilyn Monroe in a movie for goodness sake. I understand Zoe Saldana is black and that's cool but what does that mean? That any Black woman can play Nina Simone just because their Black? Knock it off. At least find me a woman that vaguely resembles Nina, not someone that looks absolutely nothing like her.
Said in Los Angeles | August 19, 2012 10:06 PM
To those waving the Black Power flag and saying that Zoe is mixed-race, not 'Black' or even 'Latina'; keep in mind that if your last name is along the lines of 'Washington', 'Taylor', 'Smith', 'Jackson', 'Jones'., etc., then you're of mixed race also. Don't get it twisted. Question the talent, not the race/ethnicity.
LeonRaymond | August 17, 2012 10:16 PM
The Black Klu Kux Klan site in full blown glory, nothing but hate and no support for any body of different ethnic hues.
misha | August 17, 2012 7:57 PM
"Outside of her tremendous voice Aretha represented the everyday woman and eevryday women do not look like Halle Berry." >>> LOL! Just one of many hilariously ridiculous comments in this trainwreck of a thread. OY VEY!
Africameleon | August 17, 2012 6:03 PM
@CP, hi-la-rious! This is a serious issue and that YES - our personal experiences with how others see us and what they see in us regarding complexion, ethnicity, and race affects who we are (in art and everyday life). I DO understand why people are acknowledging that it DOES make a difference what complexion ppl are when they portray a real-life person. But not to the extent that ppl should be excluded from certain roles (regardless of talent) on bases of complexion alone. These comments make me sad... discussing ethnicity and is she or isn't she misses the point that ALL Ma'afa-African descended women (no matter the gradation) have a cross to bare regarding their blackness (seen and unseen). And NO, I'm not suggesting reverse-Shadeism, because again, I think there are some other women out there who deserve this role and namely the Chocolate sisters we've mentioned in particular. But this convo hurts us when we don't keep things in context about the reasons we question who has the right to play what in the first place - and what's at stake in taking sides and policing these casting choices, one way or the other.
libby | August 17, 2012 5:01 PM
The problem is that people forget AFRICAN AMERICANS are an ethnic group too. Sometime people seen to forget that...
Please the SAME issue came up with Jen Lopez playing Selena. From many of these comments I can see many don't know a damn thing about Nina. HOW she looked played a important role in WHO she is and WHAT she means to African American Women. She said she was looked down upon for her full lips, kinky hair and dark skin.
Mark & Darla | August 17, 2012 4:58 PM
Don't know what's the fuss is, people could say whatever or call thyself whatever, however in a database system somewhere in Washington D.C. if you have a spit of black in you, your name is going in the black box. Federal gov ain't got time for all that foolish, to time consuming and costly checking off different boxes. Forget about the pretty choices for race identity on census appls or any other appls it's only for antiseptic and public purpose. Now that's my 25 cent on the whole subject.